No smooth path for same-sex couples to follow to wed

Posted on May 30th, 2007 by Richard Catto 4,516 views

It’s been over six months since South Africa decided to end its discrimination (on the grounds of sexual orientation) and allow same sex couples the same marital rights as male and female couples, and yet the obstacles to achieving a perfect union still loom large for them.

Whereas a heterosexual couple can quite easily find a Church willing to bless their union, same-sex couples are being told NO by all the major denominations.

The Anglicans, Catholics, Baptists and Presbyterians will not be officiating over any gaggle of gay betrothals.

The Methodists are simply stalling for time – 19 of their misguided ministers are keen to catch teh ghey (sic) bouquet, whilst the rest of their number fumes over their Heresy! In the interim, they have placed a moratorium on performing any same-sex weddings.

Don’t ya just love the smell of excommunication in the morning?

Source:
Churches bar gay marriages

Filed under bigotry, Christian bigotry, Church, couples, excommunication, gay, homosexual, marriage, queer, same sex marriage |

22 Responses to “No smooth path for same-sex couples to follow to wed”

1. Richard Catto Says:
   May 30th, 2007 at 08:13

   What do you think?

   Are the Churches acting to entrench the disenfranchisement of gay couples?

   What is more important? The old traditions or the new age we live in?

   Will the Christian Church of tomorrow be a kinder gentler place for gay people? Or will they remain stuck in the mentality of the Middle Ages?

   I think I’ll put up a new poll. No-one votes, but I’ll do it anyway!

2. Brian Smart Says:
   May 30th, 2007 at 11:15

   The Christian Church main function is to teach us what God has handed down to us. It is not there to judge that is left to our Creator. He gave himself the job ! Church teaching is always supported by scripture in both Old & New Testaments.

   Gods love is equal to all men and women and we are ‘commanded’ NOT advised to love our neibor as ourself. We all struggle with that commandment on its own, quite apart from ‘loving your enemy’ !

   The Church does not have a problem with a homosexual but it does have as a problem with sodomy. That is a perversion along with other forms of gaining sexual release. Most of us are heterosexual and we do find sodamy naturally repulsive. When you have met a practiceing homosexual, who have found that over time his or her homosexual relationship does not bring happyness, you know there is a better alternative. He or she can and generally does over time, make a choice and decided to live a ‘normal’ single life which can and does bring real happyness. We have thousands of hetrosexuals, who have the same sexual drive, and are not sexually involved,living contented normal lives. Yes, sometimes lonly but living as God intended, with the ‘Peace’ that that brings to us all.

3. Dan Says:
   May 30th, 2007 at 14:19

   Who-ever answers and reasons on this pole has to understand one thing very clearly. If we’re debating issues not having the same standard in life….isn’t it then just plain pointless. Then its all a he said, she said, they said…blah, blah, blah on forever.

   The only thing that has never changed, is the unfailing Word of God. No matter WHAT or who you believe in, the day will come when we will all have to account for what we have done…and also for things we neglected to do.

   The same one and only God (and only God that has an EMPTY tomb as proof of his pretty much undisputed ressurection) that 90% of you will probably call out to before you exhale your last breath on your death bed(whether naturally or because of sickness or accidents), this same Gods’ standards and guidelines have never changed throughout the ages.

   Who changed? WE changed. Does that make it OK to change the ‘plan’ to suit us? No, you can’t. Killing people 100 or 2000 year ago is as wrong as it is today. Sleeping around 10 or 1000 years ago is as wrong as it was back then, sexual immorality is as wrong today as it was 1000′s of years ago….stealing, cheating…you name it.

   Many secular cultures acknowledge this fact as well. Why should we be excluded from it today?

   Being GAY is just not natural, plain and simple. Look at basic anatomy, nature…the way things FIT together….forget Christianity or ‘Religion’ if that’s what you want to refer to.

   Certain things just don’t FIT man, certain holes are for certain stuff people….plain and simple. The BIGGEST hole is the God shaped hole in your life that you’re trying to fill with everything else, BUT God. He’s usually the LAST re, and then still has the grace to forgive, how ironic and so GOD anyway !
   No Budha, no Krisha, Mohammed no whatever can help or save you. You’ll find their graves and their bones within those graves. They’re dead, stone cold…GONE forever, NEVER coming back !

   How many ‘suckers’ will stand one day before the throne of God, having succumbed to the biggest lie of all…that all roads lead to the same God. Eternity is a darn looooooooong time to spend in the wrong place, tomorrow is never guaranteed and might never come…and the fact that it still does is pure grace and an opportunity to make right and get ed.

   Once the ‘rumbling’ comes…..and trust me, we’ll ALL know about it because it’ll be like something no-one has ever witnessed in the whole world, the return of Chirst. It’s gonna be well, kinda too late !

   Look at powerplugs….adaptors, the way things are made…even scientifically. Certain things just belong together, and some things I’m sure you can FORCE together and try and make fit, but ultimately there’s no real actual INTER CONNECTION that secures. The forced ‘connection’ (physical in this case) causes problems of all kinds…why??? Because it’s NOT supposed to work that way.

   True Christians will welcome any gay person in their church, someone that’s WILLING to consider their ways and be open to correction.

   No-one is BORN gay, it’s not genetic, it’s spiritual oppression and manipulation and CAN be fixed and cured. It’s a spiritual disease and people can be totally set free.

   God makes NO mistakes, never has. Why should YOU claim to be the exception. He knew you even before you were born, knows the amount of hair on your very head…He’s OUTSIDE of time, he sees your whole life in front of Him from beginning to end.

   CHOICE and FREE WILL is what He gave us, and yes do what you want, but be prepared to face the consequences. What is 70years compared to an eternity of damnation?

   And me, who am I? Someone who is a sinner saved by Grace…a work in progress “Under Construction” is the banner over my head. I’m not perfect, have many mistakes, but I know where my real Help and only hope comes from. Do YOU? Do you REALLY?

   I dont HAVE a religion…I have a relationship with Jesuys Christ. I play in a band…a HOT band with a great and positive message. I have a full life, fun filled, full of challenges and troubles….but I KNOW, that I know, that I know that if I close my eyes tonight and NOT wake up tomorrow, I know where I’ll find myself. If you don’t have that assurance, then you’re well…in trouble I guess, sorry.

   There’s only ONE way, the right way and it’s through Jesus Christ. And you now have a bigger problem…You’ve been told !

   Any church and/or organisation claiming to be Christian (by the very meaning of the word: Followers of Christ), will do as HE did and the example He set. No compromise, no exception to the rule PERIOD.

   If not, He will say to those that claim:But Lord we drove out demons in your name, laid hands on the sick, did this , did that…DEPART FROM ME, I DON’T KNOW YOU !

   Eish !

4. Martin Says:
   May 30th, 2007 at 15:33

   It might be suprising to a lot of religious people but there are many people who think that all the religious people are in la la land – in the same way, for example, most Christians think that Muslims are all going to hell and vice versa. To me personally, your comments about your god is of no consequence at all and does not pertain to me – and I cannot be bothered about your religious rants. (Yes I know you will now say i am going to hell bla bla bla). Go read ‘The God Delusion’ – on seconds thoughts rather not. In any case, why any gay person would want to get married in a church that keeps telling them they are low-life disgusting perverts who will burn in hell boggles the mind. I have been with my partner for 17 years in a fully commited relationship and we are getting married in June – yipeeee!!! Clearly there will be no churches involved – or any other fantasy clubs. We are going to court and then will have a wonderful reception. Lastly, to all these severly anti-gay people – think about this: ALL gay people come from hetero relationships. What makes you so specialy that you won’t have gay kids? For your children’s sake I hope they are all straight.

5. Sven Says:
   May 30th, 2007 at 16:29

   As one of the 19 ministers that stood I need to inform you that you got your facts just slightly wrong. We had overwhelming support from our Synod and, whilst there are some who are unhappy, we were loved and accepted even by some of those who disagree with us. We were 19 that stood in the Cape District but there were others who stood in the rest of the country and a request has gone through to our higher courts to allow ministers who wish to to register with home affairs to perform same-sex unions. Most of those who stood will be happy to bless a same-sex union that has been legalised by home affairs. Herewith a statement issued by our Bishops:

   STATEMENT ON SAME SEX UNIONS

   The following statement is the outcome of a tele-conference with the Bishops of the MCSA on 14th May 2007

   __________________________________________________________

   As a result of certain of our ministers at our recent Synods giving a qualified answer to the traditional Methodist Question 1 (Laws and Discipline Synod Order of Business, 5.4.1 – 5.4.3), namely whether “they believe and preach our doctrines” and whether they “have duly observed or enforced our discipline” we deem it necessary to clarify certain matters of Methodist governance.

   We remind you that Methodists’ pride themselves on being an inclusive body of Christ which celebrates diversity in all its facets of its religious, social and organisational being. The universality of the Methodist doctrine of salvation – ALL people need salvation and can indeed be saved – obliges members to pastor to all people irrespective of differences of race, gender, social class, disability, sexual orientation etc.

   The MCSA is a Connexional Church and thus Synod is subject to Conference and the Connexional Executive. Furthermore, irrespective of the personal positions of the Connexional Leadership regarding “same sex unions”, we are all bound to uphold the decisions of Conference. Differences of opinion and/or conscience does not necessarily imply a breach of our discipline.

   At this stage, by not arriving at finality or legislating on the matter of “the same sex debate”, Conference has not introduced any new legislation nor amended our longstanding doctrinal position on marriage in any way or form. In 2006 the Connexional Executive reiterated the position of the MCSA recognising marriage as only between a man and a woman and reaffirmed our commitment to ongoing dialogue to create an environment which will lead to social equity within and outside the life of the Church. With open hearts and minds we trust that such an environment will enable the MCSA to respond appropriately to the application of our doctrines and usage regarding unions and marriage.

   Please note that if a Minister is unable to give an unqualified “yes” to the question of whether they “duly observe and enforce our discipline”, our practice is that the Bishop appoints a Pastoral Commission to investigate the qualified answer. The Minister is asked to recuse him/her self from the Synod until the Pastoral Commission has submitted its report to the Bishop who, after considering the contents of the report, makes a decision. Be reminded of our requirement that all relevant interested parties have an opportunity to present their side.

   We look forward to continued guidance from DEWCOM who have been mandated by Conference to consider all the diverse theological viewpoints in this matter.

   Let us strive to uphold the dignity of all our members by moving our dialogue forward in love, trust and respect.

   END OF STATEMENT

   Some Christians will become more inclusive others will not. Some churches will, others will not. But we will continue to strive for a more loving and inclusive church.

   Sven

6. Richard Catto Says:
   May 30th, 2007 at 16:53

   Homosexuality is natural actually. Chimps are bi-sexual, for instance.

   But, this is not a debate about religious beliefs.

   This topic is about human rights.

   All the religious dissenters were heard already when they objected to extending marriage to same-sex couples, and they were overruled.

   Our Constitution says it’s unfair to discriminate against someone based on their sexual orientation.

   Our Constitution sets aside moral judgements of homosexuality and recognises that everyone has a right to pursue a happy fulfilled life by sharing it with a person they love in a committed relationship.

   And now the Churches are throwing up one last obstacle (to their happiness) by refusing to marry same sex couples, thereby making marriage less accessible to them, depriving them of the same opportunities that heterosexuals enjoy.

   The churches have always happily married a heterosexual couple which decides they want the glamour of a church wedding and starts attending a church just to get the nod. Once married they are never seen again.

   Adulterers, divorcees, etc. all succeed in getting the Church wedding they desire.

   Churches have played fast and loose with marriage by, for example, annulling marriages between couples who had even had children together, on flimsy theological pretexts such as one partner not being a believer.

   Many churches have railed against homosexuality, criticising them as being insubstantial unions which do not endure, and yet that description fits many heterosexual unions.

   Marriage has been waning in popularity amongst heterosexuals for some time now, despite the churches extolling the benefits of the sanctity of marriage.

   A whole new generation of couples stand eagerly awaiting the opportunity to affirm their love and commitment to each other.

   Perhaps their unions will be more perfect?

   Why should the churches stand in the way of exactly the kind of relationships they have always been eager to encourage and nurture?

   Finally, if the Churches still adamantly refuse to join same-sex couples in marriage, perhaps the government should revoke their marriage licenses altogether, so that heterosexual couples will also have to apply at the magistrates court for their marriage license?

   Just so there’s no discrimination.

7. Richard Catto Says:
   May 30th, 2007 at 17:06

   Thanks, Sven, for your comment.

8. Mark Says:
   May 30th, 2007 at 21:13

   This is for Sven.

   Will someone please explain what a homosexual relationship is? I cannot erase the picture of an erect penis being thrust into the rectum of another male. Surely the rectum was made to excrete faeces? This in itself is a disgusting act. Do I have the wrong idea of this all? How can someone find this so appealing?
   Or am I so naive that I am missing the core appeal of a relationship? I shudder to think that a human being could stoop to this. Please explain to me what occurs between two men in a relationship.

9. Jennifer Woodhull Says:
   May 30th, 2007 at 21:44

   Morality somehow never quite manages to control people’s behaviour. The fact of the matter is that people of the same sex have been making lifelong commitments to each other since the beginning of recorded history. It was difficult to appeal for community support for our unions while we were still in the closet–getting out into the same air everyone else breathes was the situation of first emergency. Now we’re out, it’s not a question of whose version of Right and Wrong prevails. It’s not even up to the Constitution. Gay marriage is as inevitable as mixed-race marriage, and a couple of decades from now, people will look back on this era of bigotry with exactly the same mixture of embarrassment and disgust currently reserved for the erstwhile Immorality Act.

10. Richard Catto Says:
    May 31st, 2007 at 01:08

    Mark, heterosexual couples also engage in anal intercourse. And of course, oral intercourse.

    I’m telling you, the churches have been marrying heterosexual “perverts” for years!!!

11. Andre Says:
    May 31st, 2007 at 08:38

    What I continue to struggle with as a minister of the Methodist Church is the inability to live with grace in our relationships.

    I am heterosexual. I was born that way and believe it would be wrong of me to live in a relationship that is not true to who and what I am. The church does not have a problem with me.

    Why, oh why, then, can we not simply afford the same understanding to those who have been born with a homosexual orientation. Why must they be forced to be something other than what God has designed them to be?

    Maybe the next (or next . . .) generation will eventually get it right!

12. Richard Catto Says:
    May 31st, 2007 at 08:46

    thanks, Andre.

13. Sven Says:
    May 31st, 2007 at 08:57

    Mark,
    A relationship is not all about sex nor is it only about sex. Sex is just one part of a relationship that involves physical, spiritual, emotional, etc. (whole being). Anal intercourse is also not the only sexual act. Relationships involve intimacy and intimacy can be expressed sexually in a multitude of ways as Richard has pointed out.

    Richard,
    Our constitution also allows for religious freedom of expression. Therefore any religious leader should be allowed to express their freedom not to officiate at a marriage. Many ministers have done just that during the heterosexual marriage only era and couples had to go elsewhere.

    There are at least two aspects to marriage – the legal (state) part and the religious/spiritual part. These have always been kept separate and should (in my opinion) continue to. Some people choose not to have any religious/spiritual connection to their marriage ceremony and that’s OK. Others long for that aspect and we’re saying they should be allowed that freedom.

    Some of us did in fact argue that only the state should be able to perform the legal union and then people can be free to seek whatever religious/spiritual blessing they want after that. The church would still have had to grapple with the issue though.
    I think Jennifer is right. In a few years this won’t be such a big issue.

    We will keep fighting for the Methodist Church to fully accept and embrace all people regardless of colour, gender, sexuality, etc.

    Please also note that:
    More than 500 prominent Christians – including academics, theologians, members of parliament, artists and activists – have signed a petition to the General Synod of the Dutch Reformed Church to plead for the church’s condemnation of discrimination against homosexuality and the full acceptance of homosexuals in the church “as members and human beings”. (see full story at http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=125&art_id=vn20070529042321873C752045)

    Not all Christians are anti-gay. The whole Church is not anti-gay.

    Keep the faith
    Sven

14. Richard Catto Says:
    May 31st, 2007 at 09:56

    Thanks again, Sven for your thoughtful comments.

    I read the article at the link you posted and see that Progressive Jews have decided to marry same-sex couples.

    I wonder how other faiths feel about this issue, e.g. South African Muslims?

15. Brian Smart Says:
    May 31st, 2007 at 14:55

    Richard it is an interesting debate and pleased to see that angry comments have been avoided thus far.

    The Angilcan Creed has something to say about …….following the desires of our own hearts. We are mortal and in our natural state thats just what we do!
    Our challenge, is it not, in this short life of ours surely is first to seek the truth about our part in creation? That above all must be and is an intellectual exersize. Scripture therefore, if for no other season, because of its historical dating, must point us in the right direction. It is after all a record, over time, of our human experiences and interaction with our Creator, experiences for us all to draw on.
    All scripture does reflect quite clearly we are a somwhat rebelious bunch. We certainly seem to try and do everything but what is right in Gods eyes. You Richard know that to be true!

    We are struggling here on this question, in our earthly state, and that question quite bluntly IS sodomy, inside or outside the marital state, acceptable to God!

    Perhaps if we can elevate our minds on to the spiritual plain, to which I do remind you that we are ALL heading, that this question then may be easier to find an honest answer.

    My last comment on this subject of our relationships, is that little story about an old retired President. When asked about how he would like to be remembered?
    “His reply was that” he would only like to be remembered as
    being kind! ”
    That will do for me also. Hetrosexuals, homosexuals and all us sinners, with Gods good grace, we can at least do that !

16. Richard Catto Says:
    May 31st, 2007 at 15:08

    Lot had sex with his daughters. David had an adulterous affair and had the husband murdered.

    The only person in the NT who had a problem with homosexuality was Paul and he wrote exactly one verse about it.

    Paul also wrote that women should not be permitted to speak in church. Nor teach men.

    In fact, Paul had a lot more to say about what women could not do, and yet all those things are ignored by most churches. You still do have churches which get crazy and won’t allow women to teach men.

    Religious debates are pointless. This is not about religion.

    This is about homophobia and people’s unwillingness to let go of it.

17. Brian Smart Says:
    May 31st, 2007 at 16:19

    BACK ON TRACK
    Sorry, your point Richard, indeed your entreaty (Item 6) that this topic is about Human Rights! Thank you for bringing us back to that point.

    We all have rights under the Consitution. I assume you refer to Chapter 2 clause 9.3.
    My reading of that clause is that I also will not be discriminated against. Being someone, a natural person, who is convinced that same sex marrage is wrong. We surely are allowed our democratic position by majority vote to disallow it, when it is expressly forbidden in out own Church constitutions.
    You are right on one point, no self respecting ‘practicing’ homosexual would want to go against the ‘rules’ of the Church membership they seek and still expect a Minister to give them a let !

    The Government has done the thing required of it and given homosexuals ( I dislike the word Gay) the rights they requested.
    As an identfied group, they are now NOT discriminated against and have legal recognition of a union. Homosexual partners always were able to draw up a contract to regulate thier affairs but it did require some effort.

    Enough is enough Guys.
    Do not expect those of us, who based on solid argument, to condone something we regard as morally wrong behaviour. No edict from our Constitutional Court will achieve that. Allow us from the Christian Bench, in all kindness to remind all of us living in 2007, the recorded destruction of Sodom and the reason why.
    A homosexuals spiritual life is of paramount importance. It is worth thinking and struggling about, especially as forgiviness is always available !

18. Richard Catto Says:
    June 1st, 2007 at 00:04

    Brian, you may only rightfully decide that same-sex marriage is wrong for yourself.

    It’s not right of anyone to decide this for others.

    Sodom and Gomorrah was not destroyed because they were gay. They were destroyed because they were rapists.

    All law and order had broken down in that city.

19. Dan Says:
    June 1st, 2007 at 15:47

    To all the ministers of what-ever Christian churches in here.
    Jesus set the example. God created and instituted marraige and the guidelines are very, very clear in the Bible.

    If you are NOT teaching what the Word says, not following it’s guidelines…then you have NO business being a minister. repent and ask the giver of life to renew a right spirit within you.

    Being a Christian implies being a follower of Christ by the very meaning and translation of the word itself. It means following His example, doing as HE did, and he did so dying on a cross showing us…DIED on a cross mr compromising Pastor, or Father, Reverend…whatever title you have been endowed with.

    Whether you believe or not, it still does not take away the fact that you will stand before Him one day and have to account. It’s not just a belief… all true reborn Christians KNOW this, it’s an intimate revelation that only comes with knowing Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour. You can’t CONVINCE anyone, force anyone…and anyone who does should STOP.

    Invite, have grace, give the Truth, share the good news of hope and that’s all we’re called to do. The Holy Spirit does the rest and will keep try
    knocking on that door UNTIL He returns. In THAT hour as the Bible says, there’ll be a wailing and a knashing of teeth like the workd has never seen before or known. Generally a good idea to know where you stand when that happens ! Don’t think you’ll see any Budha or Krishna or some other dead god or idol hovering around.

    The ressurected spirits of those so-called gods/gurus, PEOPLE or other religion prophets will be bowing down before the King of Kings and Lord of Lords saying…Worthy is the Lamb, even though they’re condemned themselves.

    The Bible says that to anyone that’s NOT a Christian this will all seem like foolishness, and reading all the above comments, it just again proves it.

    Science tried to disprove true Christianity and the Bible and failed…The account of Noah and the ark was proved scientifically, a few nights ago the likelyhood of Adam, us all coming from ONE man was proven through D.N.A. and Y- Chromosomes on a National Geographic Special….all studies undertaken by sceptics etc. The so called Da Vinci code was also exposed as a bunch of hog-wash on national TV…again by sceptics and secular scientists and researchers alike.

    The bottom line, real truth can never be disproved. People try and distort, alter interpretation to suit them…but it always backfires at some or other time. It NEVER hold water for too long.

    Many, many, MANY millions of people are in for a maaaaajor BUMMER one day. No re-incarnation, no 2nd chance. Jesus came and showed the way, LAID DOWN HIS LIFE (it was not taken, He could’ve destroyed man kind with one command from the cross at any time), and SHED his blood willingly…it was never spilt ! Why? Because He has plan. Free WILL got the upper hand in the grden of Eden…where it all started, and He had to devise a plan to give us a 2nd chance…and HE did.

    Yet, the denial, the excuses, the persistance, the continual resistance…looks like people WANT to die and spend eternity without God in the fire pitts of Hell. Mense will nie blerrie hoor nie ! And if you don’t believe in Hell, then it’s also your choice, but we’ll all stand there…that you can know for sure as there was a yesterday. Tomorrow is never guaranteed.

    Remember my words when YOUR number is up, and hopefully it’s not too late !
    Jesus was never popular, he didn’t WANT to be popular…neither do I want to be. The truth HURTS, always will, the punishement for sin is DEATH…eternal death and damnation…change sometimes comes with much pain and sacrifice, but MAN….the alternative is SO not an option for me and I was hoping also not so with anyone with more that half a brain-cell…even if it’s shared.

    Take a simple every day example, discuss any belief system (other than Christianity) in a public place or que….most people won’t even notice, comment, look around or anything especially with the popular new age type religions weird practices and popular ‘fad’ religions of the day being discussed. It’s cool after all, the IN thing.

    NOW, try and even just MENTION the name of Jesus…the power of the blood that was shed, the God of heaven and earth, Christ the Saviour and suddenly people feel the urge to whisper and not talk loud. People get uncomfortable, get agitated, feel the need to get out of the immediate area…get offended even…..WHY?…ever wondered?

    I’ll tell you why…because there’s tremendous POWER in that Holy name, the ONLY name by which man can be saved…the ONLY name that can drive out demons and set people free from addictions or deviation of ANY kind, physical or chemical.

    It’s THAT name that “KRAP” where people don’t naturally want to be “krapped” (Afrikaans word) at…that makes the spirit react. HOW you react and your response is up to you. You SOUL knows it, your SPIRIT knows it…now it’s just your MIND that need to understand and yield to what your soul and spirit already know. it’s a continual warring between mind and soul.

    There’s MUCH more to it than you might ever know. Make sure YOU’RE in the know.

    Mmmm, somewhat off the subject bu aain in some way it all comes back to one simple yet profound Truth. There only ONE way, and that’s the right way, NO grey area.

    Dan

20. Richard Catto Says:
    June 1st, 2007 at 15:58

    Dan, show me just one thing Jesus said against homosexuals.

    Just one quote of Jesus.

    You can’t, because Jesus didn’t go around condemning people.

    You know who did?

    Paul.

    Biggest loser ever. That man was a false Apostle. Everything he wrote should be stricken from the NT.

    Get back to Jesus, Dan. Paul is sending you to Hell where he waits for you.

21. Brian Smart Says:
    June 14th, 2007 at 00:28

    19 Richard Well that does get back to the point made before.
    We all do have free choice as to how we live. God allows that, and whatsmore he tells us he will give us over to our own desires.

    You and I have that earthy human right.

    We do have the choice to put ourselves under his authority or not !

    I can only witness to you, that having done that, I do “have a joy that passes mans understanding”.

    Your view of Paul is a new one to me. He was something else when he was persecuting followers of Christ. Surely, the point of God raising him up so powerfully, was to demonstrate His power to change the nature of such a sinfull character!

    Sorry, most students will not agree with you about Sodom. The picture painted was that our lustfull sinful nature had taken over the City. God decided at His sole discretion, enough was enough.

    Not so different to 2007 perhaps, but lets not go there or we will be in the ‘imminent end of the world’ debate.

22. Richard Catto Says:
    June 14th, 2007 at 16:12

    Ever wonder why God has never destroyed another city again?

    Well… He never applied for the necessary environmental permits for Sodom & Gomorrah.

    He’s still dealing with fallout from that one today.

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